Welcome to the real world, Barack.
(Note: Jackson thinks the article is suspect. It is from Granma, which is the official newspaper of the Central Committee of the Cuban Communist Party. Granma regularly publishes the speeches and writings of Cuban leaders. The article is part of a running series called "Reflections" by El Jefe Maximo himself, Fidel Castro. I assume this meets Jackson's legitimacy test.)
28 comments:
The article you linked to is dreadfully suspect. Where'd ya dig it up? Heresay.com?
Not at all suspect. Granma is the official newspaper of the Central Committee of the Cuban Communist Party. It's Fidel's very own mouthpiece.
Sorry.
No, I'm the one who's sorry as I don't get any of this.
It does not meet my legitimacy test. My test is; can one understand what these people are on about. The answwer is no, one can't.
Why don't you cite something that has a point?
I don't understand your objection. This is a direct answer from Fidel Castro to Obama's speech in which he says he wants to open up relations with Cuba again. There's no "these people." This is Castro himself responding and he is not giving Obama much respect for his speech.
How much more relevant does it get?
If your objection is that Fidel is a ranting, raving lunatic, you are making my point about Obama's naivete in offering to talk with him and his brother.
Jackson,
I too am confused with your suspicion. Help me out...
Simple, I read about half of the article, never got to any of the Castro stuff because I stopped reading due to exhaustion setting in while waiting for the writer of the article to get to the fucking point.
As for Obama - he's just alright with me.
As for Castro - isn't he dead yet?
I think that as soon as Fidel actually does die, his brother will losen up considerably.
The compltete shun of Cuba hasn't really achieved anything in the past forty some odd years, why do we cling to it so?
I'd consider it a failed policy and look to other means of helping out the poor repressed citizens of Cuba, such as diplomatic pressure, hey, but that's just me, wacky jackson talking.
For the record, I'm no Fidel fan.
They do make great sandwiches.
Love the sandwich myself...
I too am somewhat optimistic re: post Fidel, but only slightly and guardedly so. It will take serious investment to bring the nation into the 21st century, and I'm not sure little brother is going to allow that. It may take a revolution to turn the tide.
Also, you have the misguided notion that any American corp moving manufacturing to Cuba in the wake of liberation from the current regime would only amount to, in the words of my Anti-Globalization consults: "an emerging transnational corporate state much like the emerging dominant global model, one that supplants democracy on every level, which transcends all nation states, including their populist segments, and dictates global, legal, and economic policy with unequivocal power."
So putting people to work, or lending money to them for (gasp!) a profit on future returns would just be plain ole evil, bully, US of A up to their dirty old tricks.**
(**not intended as a slag at Jackson, just the AG’ers)
Oh, I see, I don't have the misguided notion, but that notion is out there being noted by those who have that notion.
Ok.
I don'tthink we'll see a revolution, I think they'll emerge from the darkness off communism via the Chinese methos, albeit, hopefully without as much fuss and ass dragging.
Jackson -
When you say we can help repressed Cuban citizens through diplomatic pressure, what steps, precisely, do you have in mind?
What diplomatic pressure do you want to try that we haven't used for the last 50 years?
Telecasters for sandwiches.
Really, Dave, I see right through your tactics. You first, what has four decades of boycott acheived?
I am not arguing that the previous strategy has worked. I think that Cuba is largely irrelevant now that it is no longer a client state for the Soviets. I also see little reason for the U.S. to engage Castro or his brother until they decide to change their ways. Until then, frankly, they can go screw themselves and they should not be granted the privilege of trade with the U.S.
I am asking you what it is that you and those who are suggesting "diplomatic pressure" are suggesting we do that is new and different.
Because we've had 50 years of diplomatic pressure and it hasn't produced jack shit. What do you think a boycott is anyway? It's a form of diplomatic pressure.
Here's a great example of what you get when you open a dialogue with Castro, as Carter did in 1977. You get the Mariel boatlift, in which a dictator unloads his jails and mental institutions on Florida and practically soils his dress uniform laughing at what a bunch of saps we Americans are for trusting him.
Jackson, you are fighting against a straw man. There has been no monolithic U.S. policy towards Cuba for the last 50 years. We've been through a zillion iterations of policy and diplomacy with Cuba and it has all produced nothing. It never will. It's a waste of time. Castro has to die and his brother has to be overthrown before there is change on the island.
As my father wisely said, don't waste your time trying to reason with irrational people. Castro is a perfect example.
Well, Bush is letting us send cell phones and money now, I see that as one of the very few good things he's done.
Toss 'em a few goodies, they'll want more. You can't expect the people to rise aginst the Castro's without a little encouragment from us. Yeah, I know Kennedy, a liberal, fucked it all up, and Carter, another liberal got used like a cheap handbag, but it's better to try and help to sit by and watch.
I don't expect you to know anything about compassion for the fellow man, you're far to conservative for that.
"You can't expect the people to rise aginst the Castro's without a little encouragment from us."
Hmmmm... I thought this was policy you were dead set against us getting mixed up in. You know, meddling in other sovereign nations affairs and such. Unfortunately not meddling in other nations affairs regrettably comes with sitting on the sidelines watching the people live in misery (think of the millions of women who are currently enslaved in the ME).
"I don't expect you to know anything about compassion for the fellow man, you're far to conservative for that."
Easy thar fella...
I'll remember this quote when Obama makes his first attempt to pull all our troops out of Iraq completely removing what semblance of order they have in place at the moment.
It's okay Tony, Dave can handle my cheap shots. I'm sure they are somewhat expected by now.
There's a space in between meddling and complete disengagement. Perhaps an economic relationship based on benevolence instead of exploitation?
Encouraging a regime change in Cuba does not have to involve an invasion on our part.
I love the sight of Jackson twisting himself into a position where he supports regime change in a foreign country that has not attacked us. It's a magnificent piece of mental Twister. Jackson, are you suggesting that we use "other" means to promote regime change.
We did that in the early 1950s in Iran and that has really turned out peachy, hasn't it? Not to mention various places in Latin America.
I'm not suggesting any means of regime change, you guys are. maybe you should read the comments first.
Uh, Jackson, where have I called for regime change as a US policy?
Encouraging non-US invasion regime change as you did recommend still involves a shit ton of involvement nonetheless if it's to have any effect at all.
I wouldn't endorse invading Cuba either, but I also accept this sad truth; that for things to change at all for the Cuban people in any meaningful way, the Castro bros. have got to go, and it'll have to be Cubans who, with or without our meddling, that gine'em the boot. For the record, I think they'd be better able to do just that with our help and I'd but there are folks at Langley AFB who are gainfully employed to do just that.
God bless'em.
No I did not. You must be having trouble understanding me. Please cite the reference and I'll sort you out as to what it means.
If the Cubans revolt, so be it. I think the US should stay out of their politics and government and simply be there as a trading partner.
I think if you go back and read this thread as I have just doen three time looking for where I allegedly supported regime change, you'll se that, and the fact that I was bored and confused by the article that Dave so lamely used to suggest Obama was some sort of Castro sympathizer.
So agressive.....you guys need yoga or something.
"You can't expect the people to rise aginst the Castro's without a little encouragment from us."
"and look to other means of helping out the poor repressed citizens of Cuba, such as diplomatic pressure"
Maybe I am having a hard time understanding your suggestions here, because this sounds to me like meddling as you describe it.
Face it dude, there are only two ways of dealing with total wack jobs as heads of state: get involved to some degree whether through economic/diplomatic pressure up to counter insurgency assistance (i.e. meddling), or isolate completely and sit on the sidelines while the people suffer to the point revolution occurs. If you can point to one instance of this country or any other that's successfully imployed something other than this that has actually worked, I'm all ears.
I'm not suggesting that either of the two options has been hugely successful historically, but I just don't see much else that can be done. Ultimately oppressed people suffer.
BTW, handing out cellphones is cool by me of course...
Yeah, but I'm not suggesting it, I'm saying you can't expect it to happen.
That's the thing with you - who I love - is that you read what you want to read into what you read.
I was discussing US foriegn economic policy and how it pertains to Cuba.
What I believe is that we should work with our neighbors to create peace.
There's only two ways to deal with anything with you guys, THAT'S THE PROBLEM. Agression breeds agression. Why do you think Castro went commie? He wanted Havana back from us.
200 hundred years ago nobody would ever have though that England France and Germany could get along, look at 'em now.
There are ways to work with people.
Kettle your black...
I've not endorsed either of the two options I noted to this point, so I'm not sure where you get the using force bit. As a matter of fact, I'm prone to leave Cuba the fuck alone completely since it poses no security threat to us anymore, and would rather focus our efforts on nations that do. I would never in a million years suggest waging war on Cuba. My point is that, and where this all started, was that taking an isolationist stance results in people suffering. Sending $$$ into a Castro Bros. Cuba haphazardly has a potential to backfire if the only place it goes is under Castros mattress.
I'll give you another scenario:
America has suspended humanitarian aid to Somolia on occasion and might be doing so right now. Why? Because Al Quada and Islamic extermists are highjacking the food and feeding their armies with it. Continuing to hand these fucktards food only STRENGHTENS those who are oppressing the citizentry. So, we cut off aid and people suffer.
It blows and it frustrates all of us I'm sure. I wish there was an easy solution to problems like this, but there just isn't. Should we aid counter insurgancy in Somolia? I say yes (I'm certain the CIA are active there now given the players in that mess of a country). You might have another opinion, I don't know.
There was a lot of force exercised before England, France and Germany became buds.
Respectfully...
Seems we do this dance regularly and we still manage to step on each other's feet.
At the end of the day I don't know anything.
Both kettle and pot tend to be black on the bottom.
Uh, no, I didn't suggest that Obama was a Castro sympathizer. I suggested that Obama's notion that he was going to change Castro's stance towards the U.S. by "diplomacy" was naive and I provided a pretty solid piece of evidence that Castro doesn't give a shit if Obama wants to talk to him.
That evidence was Castro himself saying, essentially, "Fuck you, we will not be lectured to by the imperialist pigdogs of America, even if it is Obama."
I love you Jackson, but you seem to have missed the point of this post and article from the very beginning, especially when you admitted you hadn't actually read the article at the same time you were calling it "dreadfully suspect."
Also, Jackson, you keep reading this concept of aggression into what I am saying and what I have said is that we should just ignore Cuba. There's no upside in getting involved there. It's no longer a client state for a fascist regime (although it is, itself a fascist regime) and has little strategic value anymore.
What I have said is that there is no value in trying to approach diplomacy with Castro as if he is a rational actor. He is not. A rational actor (at least one we could negotiate with) doesn't starve his people in the interests of ideological battles with the US. It's been nearly 20 years since the Soviet Union fell and all he has done is grind his poor people into further poverty - that is, when he isn't locking them up for being dissidents.
We don't need Cuba. Just leave it alone and Castro will eventually die and we'll see what happens. Until then, fuck Castro.
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